Curse

StueyG · Nov 26, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

1. Just think it is silly to have a cap. Makes no sense to be honest. Won't stop it, honestly should be glad to have people that post that stuff on here as you can have them shut down. One less supporter of gold sales.

2. Also do not like the idea of making more forums and the verification or mediation mods. I was around when that stuff was going on and it was majorly corrupted. Way too easy to abuse. I have screens of exactly what Inde talked about with a "mod" mediating a trade.

3. I don't have near the cash/ecto most of the real high end people have. All I have is tons of customized stuff. Malice is way ahead of me, and so is tramp, etc etc.

Edit: That was only in response to the comment that I supposedly have "40k/e" or might have near that......

carnage-runner · Nov 26, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

In response to #3. It doesn't void your opinion just because you aren't as e-rich as someone else. Also, we only know how e-rich someone is by what they show us in game.

Eazy Duz It · Nov 26, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

On the other hand... If enforcing a level cap means, checking to make sure offers are legit I am 100% for it. Sometimes it does seem like people simply post to boast and show off there wealth whether it be the seller and the item or the buyer and the offer. I mean lets be honest what are highend minis or reqq8 weapons other than items to outdo one another on the internet.

dr love · Nov 26, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

even though there's only a handful of people that can deal in that kind of ectos, and they all know each other anyway, i do not believe a cap should be imposed.

mcsumo · Nov 26, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Some of the prices we see on guru are insane, but a bid cap, would not have the effect you are looking for.

People who want ridiculously expensive stuff would just look on other sites. People who are thinking of RMTs and can afford it certainly don't need guru to tell them about it.

It would serve no purpose other than making more work for our already hard pressed mods, so a bad idea IMO.

Malice, Stuey, Tramp etc .... just ignore the trolls. You guys have the most money because you have traded 'smart' since the very beginning. Which one of you has more really doesn't matter and any complaints are probably based on jealousy.

Curo · Nov 26, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Being someone who has played this game for 2,000 hours over almost 3 years, I have maybe 1 mil to my name if all my assets are accounted for. I don't understand, even for those who have played 3x as many hours as me, how some people could amass such wealth without illegal activity (duping or buying). I kind of came to this realization the other day when going through Tramp's amazing high end thread. Where does it all come from?

My point here is that it is really hard to draw a line between who is honest and wealthy and who is dishonest and wealthy. Personally I don't understand how such riches could be amassed by an honest person, but I'm told it happens. For the reason of this uncertainty I am going to vote against the sell cap. It will NEVER affect me, but it may wrongly affect someone else (like our buddy Tramp).

carnage-runner · Nov 26, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Your point is hardly a good one. I could farm 1 mill gold in a weekend easily. Yes, I farm. That's how honest money is made. Then there are power traders who even though they have earned their riches within the EULA rules, some may still claim that said riches are dishonest, or lacking in morals. Regardless, you can amass a substantial amount of wealth simply by being in the right place at the right time. The more time you invest in being in places, the more likely you will be in a place at the right time. The most I've been able to farm in 1 week is 14 armbraces in 1 week at 48e per armbrace. That is way too much time in front of a computer but it proves the point that you can farm a lot of money in this game. (I also work a full time job)

So before you claim that anyone who has more money than you do in direct relation to how much time they have played compared to you, check to make sure that you are aware of all facets of money making.

Speaking of money making... Or not at all. I still go back to saying Mods should verify items and bids in game past a certain point. No one likes fake items, or fake bidders. IF your friend has it, let him sell it, or buy it off him and sell it. If you can't find it in your storage, don't post it.

Eazy Duz It · Nov 26, 2009, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Agree 100% with carnages last paragraph

frostkisses · Nov 26, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eazy Duz It

On the other hand... If enforcing a level cap means, checking to make sure offers are legit I am 100% for it.

You're not the one that has to take time out of play to mediate this. I just think it would be insanely unfair to the mods.

carnage-runner · Nov 26, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

insanely unfair? Is it insanely unfair for me to bid on something, and get shill-bid to 500e on it? Not even knowing if the other bidder has 500e? Is it fair that the item might not exist? Nothing is fair, but if you take on a role of responsibility, expect unfair predjudice, and unfair expectation. If you can't handle the heat, stay away from the fire.

Jenn · Nov 26, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

How would you suggest we actually verify these bids? I could easily throw 5000e on an item I have no intention of buying, and if asked, I could prove I have that money. It still, however, does not prove whether or not I intend to buy the item. "Fake bids" are an extremely hard thing to patrol when most of our powers of investigation are confined to the tools we have to work with on these forums. When we can, we investigate in game (i.e. verifying someone has an item), but no matter how many tools we have, we cannot investigate intent to buy/sell.

Also, I understand that you're very concerned about your virutal wealth, but consider what you're actually asking of the moderators. Forgive me for saying this, but you have no idea what the scope of their duties are. Guru is so lucky to have the moderators that we do - they are intelligent, hardworking people that don't get paid to do this. A significant amount of time is already poured into these forums, and verifying bids in game could easily double the workload. I would not so carelessly suggest such a thing as it is not your time on the line here.

Personally, I do not feel that what you're asking is reasonable. I know, I know - there are ectos on the line, but ultimately you are responsible for your own bids. We do our best, but when push comes to shove, it's not about being able to "handle the heat." It's about recognizing that people have lives to live outside of accumulating virtual wealth.

If you are deeply concerned about fake bidding going on in a thread you are interested, I suggest you consult with a moderator to see if they can uncover anything suspicious. But to set a limit and say, "any bids over 500e must be investigated," is over the top (again, in my opinion).

frostkisses · Nov 26, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

There's too many "ifs" in it. And why are you uncapable of verifying yourself? How difficult is it for you to say hey, mind meeting me in game so I can make sure its legit? They dont comply, DONT BID. This isnt rocket science kids. It all comes down to being too lazy. "I want you to verify this so I dont have to waste my time going to look". As for the person that bids 500e but doesnt really have it...thats just a chance everyone in the game takes. You cant expect someone to hold your hand for every purchase you make. If you want something bad enough to spend 500e on, it shouldnt make a difference what the person before you bid. And as Stuey pointed out.. they've been down the road of mediating in game and it went badly. People creating similar character names and the like. If you already stuck your hand into a boiling pot of water, why in gods name would you do it again?

carnage-runner · Nov 26, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I already do consult moderators over fake bids. I have many many times as a matter of fact. I also am aware of the scope of your workload, to a certain extent, and my request is merely a suggestion pertaining to the original question at hand. It is besides the point that I am concerned about my virtual wealth, in the end it is my online time that I am putting at risk when I bid or trade, I am not asking you to moderate that. The original concept was, instead of capping bids at 5000, 10000, or 40000e... Simply verify the few bids that reach such a point. Instead of making a capping rule, just make sure people are bidding on a real item, and are bidding with things they have.

Obviously you can't be asked to verify intent and ban those who retract, but it isn't so much to ask that on things that are extremely expensive, checking to make sure they are real isn't too bad an idea.

Also, I am not virtualy wealthy. Nor do I claim to be... I have things that may or may not be worth ecto, but what you are proposing, the cap at 40000e, is something that is so far beyond most everyone in the game that ultimately it is trivial. We normal highenders deal with 400e on a great day, so we are only concerned about that amount and the trades surrounding that amount. Unfortunately there are 1000's of trades under 1000e.. and it is not realistic to expect you mods to check into every one of those.

Verify that any trade over 5000e is legitimate with regards to the item being bid on, and the items being bid with. That is perfectly reasonable, and will maybe quell some of your problems. A 40,000 ecto bid cap is a little bit ... Yea, it has nothing to do with 99.9% of GWG's members.

Silence in Death · Nov 26, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I was around when Guru mods were verifying bids, etc. and it was not a happy situation (hopefully my join date is proof enough of my claim). I, for one, could not ask a mod to do that.

My advice regarding "fake bids" is this. First, there's some sort of inherent risk with these things. Second, if you doubt a bid, do not beat their bid. If someone else does then they probably would outbid you anyway. If no one outbids them then they will be exposed as a fraud, banned and you will get the item anyway. I don't see a reason to police this.

I have a philosophical problem with a sell cap as well. It seems to me like not buying from gold/ectos or RMTs or whatever is the responsibility of individuals. Guru should not be in the business (and in fact is not in the business) of trying to police or deter the actions of players. It's just not something that anyone can expect of you nor is it something that you can always get right. I'd rather have players making mistakes than Guru being on the hook.

Imagine this. What if someone tricks a mod about having ectos/item/whatever? Who is on the hook for that? I don't want to put mods or guru in the position to be blamed for that.

LicensedLuny · Nov 26, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Ok, well I was trying to avoid getting into the "in-game verification" discussion, as that strikes me as taking Inde's thread off the original topic. But if everyone else is ok with it, here goes.

I'm against any sort of default rule that says mods have to verify things in game. While I'm not keen on having to spend time in game tracking such things down, my objection is more based on the logistics and reasoning here.

I do agree with Illfated Fat - just seeing something in the trade window in game doesn't prove that a bid or a sale is legitimate. We cannot read other players' minds to find out their true intentions.

As many people here have already pointed out, they've tried having Ventari mods offer in-game services before - it causes more problems than it solves.

As far as bids that have legitimate interest and intent but insufficient funds to make good immediately, that's not really the moderators' call. It's up to each individual seller if they're willing to wait around while the highest bidder raises the funds to make good on their offer.

Also, shouldn't you know about how much you're willing to pay? I do not condone fake auctions or shill bidding AT ALL! But really, it's up to each of us how high we're willing to go. If you feel the value of something isn't more than, say, 300k, don't bid more than that! I know we all like to get good deals, but some of the arguments here for mods verifying items in game are seeming more like asking us to serve as babysitters so that users needn't rely on their own common sense.

If you find a listing or certain bids suspicious, you can already ...

PM a mod or report and ask them to check it out,
PM the seller on Guru or in game and talk with them yourself,
or simply refuse to bid on it, period. In the end, how much nonsense you'll tolerate in exchange for some new shiny pixels is your own call, right?

And finally, yeah, please be a little more open-minded or at least a little more careful with your wording. I know quite a few people in game that have more GW wealth than I can even conceptualize. I've known some of them for years and I'm proud to call them my friends because they're great folks. To suggest that they all must be cheating by default if they have all those pixels is at best laughable. At worst, it makes the claimant appear narrow-minded and petty. Please folks - don't be "that guy."

EDIT - Oh, and reread the rules

Quote:

# Fake trades - we have seen items posted for sale, that did not exist. For this reason, we retain the right to close threads and request visual confirmation of the item ingame. If such proof is not offered, the item cannot be offered up for trade again on GWG.

is already in there. Making it required by default is excessive.

Eazy Duz It · Nov 27, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Sure, the mods are working for free. However, taking the moderator position does (Should**) mean you are willing and able to pour your time into it. Now, if Ive understood correctly Guildwars Guru's goal is to bring about equality and be fair to both buyers and sellers. Well, in order for that to happen you would have to do something to enforce it. Sure you can say it in your rules and all, but how many people are actually banned for fake bidding? Very few I would think. Once again I could be wrong though. Basically, fake/shill bidding has become a huge problem on guru and through this possible idea of a price cap, can be dealt with far better than it is, further improving the guru environment. Sure it might take more effort, but like I said, isnt it the moderators job to make sure such activities dont occur? I feel like with how large guru has become maybe the number of moderators is to little if you are complaining of "not having enough time to perform all these duties."

I dont know... Just my two cents.

edit by me - hit edit instead of reply.

Silence in Death · Nov 27, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

You speak as if the moderators here have some moral obligation to do this.

Also, one might argue equality of opportunity versus condition here. I would say that it is simply Guru's mission to provide an equal opportunity for buyers and sellers to come together. This is why they moderate the forums. It is not their job to make sure all buyers and sellers are equal. This is why they do NOT moderate the game.

I'd say what you're asking is above and beyond the call of duty here. Certainly we can't require it.

Jenn · Nov 27, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

But see, that's part of where the conflict lies WITH a price cap:

a) Either it's too high and applies to an extremely low amount of people to make all this worth it

or

b) We make the cap low enough to make it worth it (it would affect a bunch more people), but then we're turning away people who may have legitimate business to carry out.

Regardless, you guys can't just spew demands without giving some sort of context. What kind of price cap are you guys talking about? When would you guys want moderators to verify stuff in game? What would you guys want moderators to verify in game? I want numbers and I want specific examples of items/instances before I can begin to contextualize and perhaps work with what you guys are talking about.

Keep in mind simply asking someone to verify they have 5000 ectos is not even possible. Who's to say they won't just put up the same 7 stacks over and over? Also, I'm not sure why you guys are refusing to accept responsibility for your own decisions. You guys choose to raise bids - maybe you should also choose to ask the other bidders if they have legitimate offers. At the end of the day, it is YOUR money you are spending. We can only meet you halfway in protecting it. And afterall, an item is worth what people are willing to pay for it, right?

Again, I'm not sure that this is something a price cap could fix. A price cap is a fairly black and white thing which, as said above, either affects too many people, or it's so high that it isn't worth it.

carnage-runner · Nov 27, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Honestly Jen... It's too high. It wont effect enough people to matter. If you choose to implement it, not many people are going to be bothered. As for all the rest.. I don't really care what happens with bids and what not. It is what it is, you can't be everywhere at once and have omniscient power over everything Guildwars. That much is fairly obvious.

As for all other things... I just think that verification of bids/items is a good way to root out people who don't have what they are claiming they have. There is no way to figure out intention, and I don't suggest you try to. In the end, this isn't going to go anywhere far... Changing the Highend and Lowend price requirements might be interesting though.. as it is 2009.. and many people have a lot of money.

Malice Black · Nov 27, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eazy Duz It

Sure, the mods are working for free. However, taking the moderator position does (Should**) mean you are willing and able to pour your time into it. Now, if Ive understood correctly Guildwars Guru's goal is to bring about equality and be fair to both buyers and sellers. Well, in order for that to happen you would have to do something to enforce it. Sure you can say it in your rules and all, but how many people are actually banned for fake bidding? Very few I would think. Once again I could be wrong though. Basically, fake/shill bidding has become a huge problem on guru and through this possible idea of a price cap, can be dealt with far better than it is, further improving the guru environment. Sure it might take more effort, but like I said, isnt it the moderators job to make sure such activities dont occur? I feel like with how large guru has become maybe the number of moderators is to little if you are complaining of "not having enough time to perform all these duties."

I dont know... Just my two cents.

edit by me - hit edit instead of reply.

Your post says I edited because I hit edit instead of quote

Anyway -

If users such as yourself didn't take up our time with numerous rule infractions then maybe we'd have more time. I take it that didn't occur to you, no?

You all demand, but those demanding are also those that take up our time. So, to free up more of our time, how about everyone goes and read the rules then makes sure they follow them to the letter. Am I asking too much of you all here? Have a think about it.

Makes sense doesn't it?

You all can have more of my time, when you stop wasting it here. So, verifying anything over 5k ecto is a no go for me until I can go through 3 pages of every sub-forum and not find a single thread that requires my time. When that happens I'll happily pop along and check to make sure no one is having their time wasted.

Fair deal?